So...what do you believe about the Old and New Covenant? What does the sacrifice of Christ and the fulfillment of the Old Covenant when the curtain was torn mean to you?
This is a big question that I won't be able to answer completely in a comment! But thank you for asking :D
There are some laws that don't apply anymore because there's no temple, but many times in the Bible it says that the Law is not abolished or done away with.
Yes, it is fulfilled! That means that we, as Christians, are not required to keep the Law. Jews, however, as they do not believe in the NT, are required to keep the Law.
While it is not required, it's how we show our commitment to God. God made his Law for a reason :)
So although the law is fulfilled by Christ you believe that born again Christians should still be observing the law although Christ's sacrifice already fulfilled it?
You're right that the law isn't abolished. It is instead fulfilled (Romans 10:4). The word fulfilled means finished--completed to perfection.
I have to say that I'm kind of confused by your reasoning; you have written posts giving reasons for why these oft-called Christian holidays should not be celebrated by Christians, but then you say it's not required of us to keep these other Jewish holidays either. From the biblical reasoning you use to defend your case you make it clear that you believe that these Jewish holidays from the old covenant should be celebrated by all Christians---but then you say that you don't believe it's wrong of Christians to celebrate Christmas or necessary of them to celebrate Jewish holidays. I guess it all just feels very inconsistent to me.
I think this is the traditional Christian view on the current state of the law:
"An exposition of Romans 10:4, which says: "Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes," will help in understanding what it means that Christians are not under the law. The apostle Paul clarifies the effects of original sin in Romans 2:12, stating, "All who sin apart from the law will perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law." All men stand condemned before God, whether they are Jews or not, or to put it another way, whether they have the Law of God or not. Paul also states, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).
If we are without Christ, we are justly condemned in God’s sight by the Law that was given to His servant Moses. However, we might argue that those who are not Jewish and therefore do not benefit from the knowledge of the Mosaic Law (including the moral and ceremonial laws), should not be condemned in the same way. This is dealt with by the Apostle in Romans 2:14-15, where he states that the Gentiles have the essence of God’s legal requirements already ingrained and so are just as much without excuse.
The Law is the issue that has to be dealt with in order to bring us into a right relationship with God. "Know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified" (Galatians 2:16). This passage reveals that the Law cannot justify or make righteous any man in God’s sight, which is why God sent His Son to completely fulfill the requirements of the Law for all those who would ever believe in Him.
Christ Jesus redeemed us from the curse that has been brought through the law by becoming a curse for us (Galatians 3:13). He substituted Himself in our place and upon the cross took the punishment that is justly ours so that we are no longer under the curse of the Law. In doing so, He fulfilled and upheld the requirements of the Law. This does not mean that Christians are to be lawless, as some advocate today—a teaching called antinomianism. Rather, it means that we are free from the Mosaic Law and instead under the law of Christ, which is to love God with all of our being and to love our neighbors as we love ourselves.
Christ became the end of the Law by virtue of what He did on earth through His sinless life and His sacrifice on the cross. So, the Law no longer has any bearing over us because its demands have been fully met in the Lord Jesus Christ. Faith in Christ who satisfied the righteous demands of the Law restores us into a pleasing relationship with God and keeps us there. No longer under the penalty of the Law, we now live under the law of grace in the love of God."
It’s strange to distinguish between the mosaic law and the law of Christ. There’s just God’s law. In fact, if Jesus brought a different law, he couldn’t be the messiah!! God’s law existed in genesis and we see it will be kept in the future in revelation and other places. Jesus beautifully summarized the law in one word: love. Love God and love others. This is a summary of the Ten Commandments. The ten commandments are summaries of what you are calling mosaic law. God tells us if we love him then he need to obey him. Jesus kept all the Torah (that was relevant to him). This includes all the feasts. It’s also very clear from Acts (and this is post-ascension) all the disciples continued going to the synagogue and the temple and all the feasts. They were known as followers of the way, a sect of Judaism. They did not convert to Christianity.
I was not attempting to distinguish Mosaic Law and the New Covenant in the sense that they are two completely different things; I believe they are necessarily connected to one another. However, I believe that after Christ the Old Testament law is applicable in a different form. While the ten commandments are God commanding us against ten particular forms of sin, we know that we could never keep them on our own, and now that we have Christ's redemption, we know that all we need do is confess and accept him into our lives rather than regularly sacrifice animals.
I agree with most of what you have said (though I strongly disagree when you told Jack that "If someone told you that Jesus ended the law or that he kept it so you don’t have to, they were wrong." quite frankly, by Protestant standards that would be defined as heretical--the very purpose of Christ's sacrifice was that he fulfilled the law because we could not)but your application is very strange and unorthodox. If the Old Covenant is truly the way for us to live, then why did God think it necessary to send His Son? If the best way for us to interact with Him was through the practices of the Old Covenant, why bother with the gospel? I'm sure you would say it is because God wanted to reach the Gentiles as well as the people of Israel, but even so, it is something worth considering. If the Old Covenant will always apply in the same way it did then, what is even the point of Christ? You ARE inconsistent when you say that Christ's death still atones for our sins but that the practices of the Old Covenant still apply in the same way they did then. How does that work? Why does it work? Why can't the law be fulfilled by Christ and we move on into a new Covenant, "serving in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code" as Paul says?
You said,
"It’s also very clear from Acts (and this is post-ascension) all the disciples continued going to the synagogue and the temple and all the feasts. They were known as followers of the way, a sect of Judaism. They did not convert to Christianity."
First of all, it's very clear that in the Bible the apostles attempted to tell the Jews the true message of Jesus---and that the Jews in the traditional synagogues rejected it. Rather accepting Christ as their Messiah, they rejected him, and the apostles then turned to witness to the Gentiles. It is from there that Christianity is born. (Acts 13:44, etc). We see everywhere in the New Testament that those who accepted Christ, rather than choosing to worship Christ in the traditional synagogues, instead engaged in public meetings and house churches. Outside the four gospels, the letters of the apostles in the New Testament are literally the rules for how the new church of God is supposed to conduct and organize themselves. To say that all the apostles practiced Judaism after the ascension of Christ is a fallacy. They attempted to witness to the Jews and some came to Christ, but those converts then turned and organized what we now know as a Christian church.
You didn't cite any history when you made those claims; I've actually heard evidence that the apostles did not continue to go to the synagogue, temple, and feasts.
This has been a good discussion, but I think we can agree to disagree. I don't feel like you've answered my objections thoroughly or even addressed many of them. God bless!
Hi Jack! Are you familiar with David’s song at the end of II Samuel? In chapter 22 verse 21 he says “Adonai rewarded me for my uprightness, he repaid me because my hands were clean.” Verse 22 and 23 are even more explicit: “I have kept the ways of Adonai, I have not done evil by leaving my God; for all his rulings were before me, I did not depart from his regulations.” It goes on but basically he’s saying he obeyed God’s law. And I’m sure you remember the story of Bathsheba. But He repented and now we know him as a King with a whole covenant to him and his descendants and also as a man after God’s own heart. This is supposed to be our story as well. Try to obey whatever you know is right (God defines this in His word/law/loving instruction) and if you realize you did wrong, repent, return to God and His ways. Try to make it right. This is what it means to obey God’s law.
A few more verses that are helpful:
John 14:15 loving God = keeping His commandments
I Jn 3:4 sin = transgression of the law
I Jn 2:4 believers who don’t keep God’s law = liars
There are more verses if you’re interested but it’s important to understand that not even Jesus kept every law in the Torah. I know it sounds blasphemous but some laws apply only to women, or only to men, or only priests, etc. Some laws only apply at certain times or in certain places. The main thing is to obey every law that applies to you and listen to the Holy Spirit (your personal tutor! How cool is that?). If someone told you that Jesus ended the law or that he kept it so you don’t have to, they were wrong. And when you come face to face with God, you won’t be able to defend yourself by saying you were deceived by someone else- just ask Adam and Eve. We need to study the Bible like our life depends on it- because it does!
I agree with where you're coming from, but I don't think I agree with how you're applying it to the Christian life...you said,
"If someone told you that Jesus ended the law or that he kept it so you don’t have to, they were wrong."
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." -Romans 10:4
"For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”
Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith."
The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”
He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit."
-Galations 3:10-14
"But now we are RELEASED from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code." -Romans 7:6
The very point of the gospel is that we ourselves cannot keep the law. The very story of the gospel is the story of perfect Jesus sacrificing himself because we could not save ourselves.
Our inability to keep the law is why Christ had to live a perfect life under the law and die for us, thereby fulfilling the law and making it void. We have been released by the law like Romans says and now have entered into a new and redeemed relationship with Christ.
This is a topic you’ll need to dig into for yourself. I can recommend some books, but let’s start with your first verse. Christ is the end of the law. End is the translation of telos. It means the goal at which the law aims is the messiah. You can’t interpret the Bible in a way that it contradicts itself. If rom 10:4 meant what you are saying then Paul is contradicting Jesus himself in Matthew 5:17
I don't believe that it's any kind of contradiction. To fulfill means to "to meet a requirement" "to bring to fruition" or "to finish a task". In that sense, Christ is truly the end of the law; the fulfillment. He has fulfilled what we never could, and that is the gospel. He frees us from the law that we could never keep on our own; that is the very heart of the gospel. If you disagree that the purpose of the gospel is Christ saving us from what we could never escape from on our own, then I doubt we can ever come to any kind of agreement.
Have you read about the new covenant in Jeremiah 31? It’s best to read the whole section of chapters before and after as well as Ezekiel 33-37 and well worth your time!! But I’m hunting and pecking on my phone here so I’m going right for the main point here. Jer 32:33 says “‘For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” says Adonai: ‘I will put my Torah (law/loving instruction) within them and write it on their hearts; I will be their God and they will be my people’” This is part of a longer passage quoted in hebrews 8. And verse 8 introduces the long quote by saying God found fault (not with the law itself) with the PEOPLE. The law stays the same between the two covenants (how could it change? It is God’s character and he is not a man that he should change), but He changes US.
If you want a scriptural support for what it means to have the law written on our hearts, go see Romans 2:14-15
Those are wonderful verses, but from what I have learned, the "law" referred to when God talks about the law being written on our hearts is the moral code ingrained to us at conception; the knowledge of right and wrong, not what feasts and traditions to practice. I may be wrong and if so you can correct me, but I believe that is what is generally accepted by Christian theologians throughout the centuries.
I also don't believe that the difference between God's Covenants with mankind illustrates any kind of change in His character. What God requires of us pre-Christ necessitates a difference as opposed to what is required of us now that Christ has come and atoned for our sins.
Yes, I agree that in the Old Covenant it was absolutely necessary for the Israelites to make sacrifices to atone for their sins. I agree that it was absolutely necessary for them to observe Passover and the feasts that God had commanded them to observe. But through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the law was fulfilled--a new way to God has been provided for us, not through feasts and sacrifices, but through repentance and acceptance of his son.
"But now we are RELEASED from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code." -Romans 7:6
We as Christians walk in the new way of the Spirit. Not in the old way of the written code.
If what you say is true, that the law still fully applies to the Christians now living under the New Covenant, what of animal sacrifices? What of the rules regarding being clean and unclean? Does Christ's sacrifice fulfill those rules of the law, but not fulfill the practice of feasts? Your stance is, quite frankly, inconsistent.
I confess I have responded exactly like this 😂 about ten years ago. I get it! What I’m saying doesn’t agree with most Christians! You’re totally right about that. But what you can’t accuse me of is inconsistency. What I’m talking about is seeing the Bible as a single unified document with a single author. “Consistency” is my battle cry for biblical interpretation! Without a standing temple, it would violate Torah to sacrifice animals. Clean and unclean - remember Noah and the animals two by two? Go look it up. Genesis 7. Well isn’t that strange. Pre-Sinai. Also, Grace and repentance are NOT just New Testament concepts. Seriously, look for it and you’ll be shocked. God has ALWAYS wanted our hearts Deut 10:12. Jesus made a new way but it was always there in the words of the father. It seemed new to the hearers but it wasn’t really new. True enough his people did not perfectly understand, but it’s there. If you seek, you will find. We are supposed to dig and seek earnestly in his word.
I confess I have responded exactly like this 😂 about ten years ago. I get it! What I’m saying doesn’t agree with most Christians! You’re totally right about that. But what you can’t accuse me of is inconsistency. What I’m talking about is seeing the Bible as a single unified document with a single author. “Consistency” is my battle cry for biblical interpretation! Without a standing temple, it would violate Torah to sacrifice animals. Grace and repentance are NOT just New Testament concepts. Seriously, look for it and you’ll be shocked. Jesus made a new way but it was always there in the words of the father. True enough his people did not perfectly understand, but it’s there. If you seek, you will find. We are supposed to dig and seek earnestly in his word.
I agree that consistency throughout all of Scripture is very important. I also agree that grace and repentance are not unique to the New Testament, hence the laws God put in place for the Israelites before the coming of Christ. But when studying the Bible as a concise whole, I see the Old Covenant and New Covenant divinely interlinked---and the New Covenant FULFILLING the Old Covenant, therefore making it unnecessary to continue to practice in the light of Christ's saving us through the gospel.
I also agree that we are supposed to dig and seek earnestly in His Word, but quite frankly, it bothers me that you assume I haven't done that because I don't agree with you. I have many, many reasons to disagree with your take from years of reading the Word and working through my convictions and I still fail to see how your line of thinking applies in light of the gospel. I believe the message of the Bible is the gospel, and that the gospel should be our primary focus in all things. But thank you for this discussion; I appreciate your take.
John 10:22 22 "Then came the Festival of Dedication[b] at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade."
This seems like a weak statement that doesn't really support Jesus "celebrating" Hanukkah. Wasn't Jesus in the temple all the time? Just because he was there during the feast of dedication doesn't mean he really celebrated it, right? When asking the question, did Jesus celebrate Hanukkah, we have to consider where He spent most of His ministry. Perhaps we think that Jesus spent most of His time around the temple in Jerusalem which was the center of the Jewish faith. This is not the case. As Eowyn mentioned, there are a few Leviticus 23 feasts that Jewish men were supposed to travel to Jerusalem in order to observe. The feast of dedication (Hanukkah) was not one of them. Most of Jesus' ministry was spent in the region of Galilee and trips to Jerusalem were primarily reserved for the feasts. The fact that Jesus took the time to travel to Jerusalem and appear in the temple during the feast of dedication is a strong endorsement of Him celebrating Hanukkah.
I like that you spent some time on what grafting in means. People tend to get that very wrong (largely due to brainwashing in my opinion) and it's something I find myself getting sidetracked addressing quite frequently.
Personally, I don't celebrate Hanukkah simply because it's not a designated feast (as you pointed out), and the modern version of it seems very commercialized. But other than commercialization, I don't find it objectionable.
I REALLY like the Maccabee books! Talk about people having strong faith! I will likely get into it if and when I discuss dietary laws.
Thank you so much, Samuel! I completely agree with you!
As for grafting in, I almost skipped it lol, but then decided it was pretty essential to the argument. Again, thank you so much for reading my post! I always enjoy reading yours :)
This was an interesting post! When I was little, we celebrated Hannukah. We even had our own menorah. We don't do it anymore, but I never saw an issue WITH Hannukah and Christmas being celebrated at the same time.
When I was at my state's homeschool convention, my mom had made friends with one of the speakers for the Hispanic mini convention. That family celebrated Shabbat on Friday night, so Mom and I participated. It was a humbling moment.
I do think it's worth remembering that Christians live under the New Covenant, which fulfills and replaces the Old Covenant (Hebrews 8:13). That means we’re not required to follow every law given to ancient Israel, like the feasts outlined in Leviticus 23. Instead, our focus is on living by the teachings of Christ, which emphasize love and grace.
Hanukkah is a beautiful tradition, but it’s not something we as Christians are obligated to observe. Jesus celebrated it as a Jewish man living under the Old Covenant, but that doesn’t mean it’s a command for us. Since it’s not listed as one of the feasts in Leviticus 23, it’s clear that Hanukkah is more of a meaningful cultural celebration than a divine requirement.
For those who believe in Christ's sacrifice, choosing to celebrate Hanukkah can be a personal decision. It’s less about following a rule and more about finding ways to honor God in how we live today.
Nonetheless, I really appreciated your thoughts and insights, and if you want to celebrate Hanukkah but not Christmas, that's great. :)
Thank you so much, Jack!! I really appreciate your comments :D
I'll answer each paragraph:
-- I do think it's worth remembering that Christians live under the New Covenant, which fulfills and replaces the Old Covenant (Hebrews 8:13). That means we’re not required to follow every law given to ancient Israel, like the feasts outlined in Leviticus 23. Instead, our focus is on living by the teachings of Christ, which emphasize love and grace.
We are not required to keep God's Law. But He did create it for a reason. For example, the thief on the cross never kept God's Law, yet he was able to live with God. But that's also a very specific circumstance that probably none of us are living in, at least I hope.
Our relationship with God is very much like a relationship with a parent. If you don't have a good relationship with your parents, then don't use that as an example, haha. I'll use my relationship with my parents as an example!
If my mom tells me to do something, I can make the choice to obey or disobey. She's not going to disown me if I disobey, but if I obey, I show my mom that I care about what she tells me to do and that she can trust me.
God's Law is awesome, and it says that a lot in the Bible :D
-- Hanukkah is a beautiful tradition, but it’s not something we as Christians are obligated to observe.
Oh absolutely!! It's not one of the feasts/festivals commanded in Leviticus 23.
-- Jesus celebrated it as a Jewish man living under the Old Covenant, but that doesn’t mean it’s a command for us. Since it’s not listed as one of the feasts in Leviticus 23, it’s clear that Hanukkah is more of a meaningful cultural celebration than a divine requirement.
Exactly!
-- For those who believe in Christ's sacrifice, choosing to celebrate Hanukkah can be a personal decision. It’s less about following a rule and more about finding ways to honor God in how we live today.
I would also agree with that, haha.
~
Thank you so much for reading and commenting, it means so much when people take the time to talk to me about what I wrote ☺️🤓
So...what do you believe about the Old and New Covenant? What does the sacrifice of Christ and the fulfillment of the Old Covenant when the curtain was torn mean to you?
This is a big question that I won't be able to answer completely in a comment! But thank you for asking :D
There are some laws that don't apply anymore because there's no temple, but many times in the Bible it says that the Law is not abolished or done away with.
Yes, it is fulfilled! That means that we, as Christians, are not required to keep the Law. Jews, however, as they do not believe in the NT, are required to keep the Law.
While it is not required, it's how we show our commitment to God. God made his Law for a reason :)
So although the law is fulfilled by Christ you believe that born again Christians should still be observing the law although Christ's sacrifice already fulfilled it?
You're right that the law isn't abolished. It is instead fulfilled (Romans 10:4). The word fulfilled means finished--completed to perfection.
I have to say that I'm kind of confused by your reasoning; you have written posts giving reasons for why these oft-called Christian holidays should not be celebrated by Christians, but then you say it's not required of us to keep these other Jewish holidays either. From the biblical reasoning you use to defend your case you make it clear that you believe that these Jewish holidays from the old covenant should be celebrated by all Christians---but then you say that you don't believe it's wrong of Christians to celebrate Christmas or necessary of them to celebrate Jewish holidays. I guess it all just feels very inconsistent to me.
I think this is the traditional Christian view on the current state of the law:
"An exposition of Romans 10:4, which says: "Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes," will help in understanding what it means that Christians are not under the law. The apostle Paul clarifies the effects of original sin in Romans 2:12, stating, "All who sin apart from the law will perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law." All men stand condemned before God, whether they are Jews or not, or to put it another way, whether they have the Law of God or not. Paul also states, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).
If we are without Christ, we are justly condemned in God’s sight by the Law that was given to His servant Moses. However, we might argue that those who are not Jewish and therefore do not benefit from the knowledge of the Mosaic Law (including the moral and ceremonial laws), should not be condemned in the same way. This is dealt with by the Apostle in Romans 2:14-15, where he states that the Gentiles have the essence of God’s legal requirements already ingrained and so are just as much without excuse.
The Law is the issue that has to be dealt with in order to bring us into a right relationship with God. "Know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified" (Galatians 2:16). This passage reveals that the Law cannot justify or make righteous any man in God’s sight, which is why God sent His Son to completely fulfill the requirements of the Law for all those who would ever believe in Him.
Christ Jesus redeemed us from the curse that has been brought through the law by becoming a curse for us (Galatians 3:13). He substituted Himself in our place and upon the cross took the punishment that is justly ours so that we are no longer under the curse of the Law. In doing so, He fulfilled and upheld the requirements of the Law. This does not mean that Christians are to be lawless, as some advocate today—a teaching called antinomianism. Rather, it means that we are free from the Mosaic Law and instead under the law of Christ, which is to love God with all of our being and to love our neighbors as we love ourselves.
Christ became the end of the Law by virtue of what He did on earth through His sinless life and His sacrifice on the cross. So, the Law no longer has any bearing over us because its demands have been fully met in the Lord Jesus Christ. Faith in Christ who satisfied the righteous demands of the Law restores us into a pleasing relationship with God and keeps us there. No longer under the penalty of the Law, we now live under the law of grace in the love of God."
-https://www.gotquestions.org/not-under-the-law.html
It’s strange to distinguish between the mosaic law and the law of Christ. There’s just God’s law. In fact, if Jesus brought a different law, he couldn’t be the messiah!! God’s law existed in genesis and we see it will be kept in the future in revelation and other places. Jesus beautifully summarized the law in one word: love. Love God and love others. This is a summary of the Ten Commandments. The ten commandments are summaries of what you are calling mosaic law. God tells us if we love him then he need to obey him. Jesus kept all the Torah (that was relevant to him). This includes all the feasts. It’s also very clear from Acts (and this is post-ascension) all the disciples continued going to the synagogue and the temple and all the feasts. They were known as followers of the way, a sect of Judaism. They did not convert to Christianity.
I was not attempting to distinguish Mosaic Law and the New Covenant in the sense that they are two completely different things; I believe they are necessarily connected to one another. However, I believe that after Christ the Old Testament law is applicable in a different form. While the ten commandments are God commanding us against ten particular forms of sin, we know that we could never keep them on our own, and now that we have Christ's redemption, we know that all we need do is confess and accept him into our lives rather than regularly sacrifice animals.
I agree with most of what you have said (though I strongly disagree when you told Jack that "If someone told you that Jesus ended the law or that he kept it so you don’t have to, they were wrong." quite frankly, by Protestant standards that would be defined as heretical--the very purpose of Christ's sacrifice was that he fulfilled the law because we could not)but your application is very strange and unorthodox. If the Old Covenant is truly the way for us to live, then why did God think it necessary to send His Son? If the best way for us to interact with Him was through the practices of the Old Covenant, why bother with the gospel? I'm sure you would say it is because God wanted to reach the Gentiles as well as the people of Israel, but even so, it is something worth considering. If the Old Covenant will always apply in the same way it did then, what is even the point of Christ? You ARE inconsistent when you say that Christ's death still atones for our sins but that the practices of the Old Covenant still apply in the same way they did then. How does that work? Why does it work? Why can't the law be fulfilled by Christ and we move on into a new Covenant, "serving in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code" as Paul says?
You said,
"It’s also very clear from Acts (and this is post-ascension) all the disciples continued going to the synagogue and the temple and all the feasts. They were known as followers of the way, a sect of Judaism. They did not convert to Christianity."
First of all, it's very clear that in the Bible the apostles attempted to tell the Jews the true message of Jesus---and that the Jews in the traditional synagogues rejected it. Rather accepting Christ as their Messiah, they rejected him, and the apostles then turned to witness to the Gentiles. It is from there that Christianity is born. (Acts 13:44, etc). We see everywhere in the New Testament that those who accepted Christ, rather than choosing to worship Christ in the traditional synagogues, instead engaged in public meetings and house churches. Outside the four gospels, the letters of the apostles in the New Testament are literally the rules for how the new church of God is supposed to conduct and organize themselves. To say that all the apostles practiced Judaism after the ascension of Christ is a fallacy. They attempted to witness to the Jews and some came to Christ, but those converts then turned and organized what we now know as a Christian church.
You didn't cite any history when you made those claims; I've actually heard evidence that the apostles did not continue to go to the synagogue, temple, and feasts.
https://learn.ligonier.org/qas/why-doesnt-the-church-celebrate-the-old-testament-holy-days
This has been a good discussion, but I think we can agree to disagree. I don't feel like you've answered my objections thoroughly or even addressed many of them. God bless!
I'm not the most knowledgable on the topic so I asked my mom to help me out 🙈
LOL I do that with my Dad and Mom literally all the time XD. Whenever I'm confused about a Bible subject I'm like..."Uh...hey dad?"
if she ain't following every single law in the entire bible, tsk tsk not obeying god
Nope, actually :D
There are some Laws that don't apply anymore, see above! :)
Hi Jack! Are you familiar with David’s song at the end of II Samuel? In chapter 22 verse 21 he says “Adonai rewarded me for my uprightness, he repaid me because my hands were clean.” Verse 22 and 23 are even more explicit: “I have kept the ways of Adonai, I have not done evil by leaving my God; for all his rulings were before me, I did not depart from his regulations.” It goes on but basically he’s saying he obeyed God’s law. And I’m sure you remember the story of Bathsheba. But He repented and now we know him as a King with a whole covenant to him and his descendants and also as a man after God’s own heart. This is supposed to be our story as well. Try to obey whatever you know is right (God defines this in His word/law/loving instruction) and if you realize you did wrong, repent, return to God and His ways. Try to make it right. This is what it means to obey God’s law.
A few more verses that are helpful:
John 14:15 loving God = keeping His commandments
I Jn 3:4 sin = transgression of the law
I Jn 2:4 believers who don’t keep God’s law = liars
There are more verses if you’re interested but it’s important to understand that not even Jesus kept every law in the Torah. I know it sounds blasphemous but some laws apply only to women, or only to men, or only priests, etc. Some laws only apply at certain times or in certain places. The main thing is to obey every law that applies to you and listen to the Holy Spirit (your personal tutor! How cool is that?). If someone told you that Jesus ended the law or that he kept it so you don’t have to, they were wrong. And when you come face to face with God, you won’t be able to defend yourself by saying you were deceived by someone else- just ask Adam and Eve. We need to study the Bible like our life depends on it- because it does!
I agree with where you're coming from, but I don't think I agree with how you're applying it to the Christian life...you said,
"If someone told you that Jesus ended the law or that he kept it so you don’t have to, they were wrong."
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." -Romans 10:4
"For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”
Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith."
The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”
He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit."
-Galations 3:10-14
"But now we are RELEASED from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code." -Romans 7:6
The very point of the gospel is that we ourselves cannot keep the law. The very story of the gospel is the story of perfect Jesus sacrificing himself because we could not save ourselves.
Our inability to keep the law is why Christ had to live a perfect life under the law and die for us, thereby fulfilling the law and making it void. We have been released by the law like Romans says and now have entered into a new and redeemed relationship with Christ.
This is a topic you’ll need to dig into for yourself. I can recommend some books, but let’s start with your first verse. Christ is the end of the law. End is the translation of telos. It means the goal at which the law aims is the messiah. You can’t interpret the Bible in a way that it contradicts itself. If rom 10:4 meant what you are saying then Paul is contradicting Jesus himself in Matthew 5:17
I don't believe that it's any kind of contradiction. To fulfill means to "to meet a requirement" "to bring to fruition" or "to finish a task". In that sense, Christ is truly the end of the law; the fulfillment. He has fulfilled what we never could, and that is the gospel. He frees us from the law that we could never keep on our own; that is the very heart of the gospel. If you disagree that the purpose of the gospel is Christ saving us from what we could never escape from on our own, then I doubt we can ever come to any kind of agreement.
Have you read about the new covenant in Jeremiah 31? It’s best to read the whole section of chapters before and after as well as Ezekiel 33-37 and well worth your time!! But I’m hunting and pecking on my phone here so I’m going right for the main point here. Jer 32:33 says “‘For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” says Adonai: ‘I will put my Torah (law/loving instruction) within them and write it on their hearts; I will be their God and they will be my people’” This is part of a longer passage quoted in hebrews 8. And verse 8 introduces the long quote by saying God found fault (not with the law itself) with the PEOPLE. The law stays the same between the two covenants (how could it change? It is God’s character and he is not a man that he should change), but He changes US.
If you want a scriptural support for what it means to have the law written on our hearts, go see Romans 2:14-15
Those are wonderful verses, but from what I have learned, the "law" referred to when God talks about the law being written on our hearts is the moral code ingrained to us at conception; the knowledge of right and wrong, not what feasts and traditions to practice. I may be wrong and if so you can correct me, but I believe that is what is generally accepted by Christian theologians throughout the centuries.
I also don't believe that the difference between God's Covenants with mankind illustrates any kind of change in His character. What God requires of us pre-Christ necessitates a difference as opposed to what is required of us now that Christ has come and atoned for our sins.
Yes, I agree that in the Old Covenant it was absolutely necessary for the Israelites to make sacrifices to atone for their sins. I agree that it was absolutely necessary for them to observe Passover and the feasts that God had commanded them to observe. But through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the law was fulfilled--a new way to God has been provided for us, not through feasts and sacrifices, but through repentance and acceptance of his son.
"But now we are RELEASED from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code." -Romans 7:6
We as Christians walk in the new way of the Spirit. Not in the old way of the written code.
If what you say is true, that the law still fully applies to the Christians now living under the New Covenant, what of animal sacrifices? What of the rules regarding being clean and unclean? Does Christ's sacrifice fulfill those rules of the law, but not fulfill the practice of feasts? Your stance is, quite frankly, inconsistent.
I confess I have responded exactly like this 😂 about ten years ago. I get it! What I’m saying doesn’t agree with most Christians! You’re totally right about that. But what you can’t accuse me of is inconsistency. What I’m talking about is seeing the Bible as a single unified document with a single author. “Consistency” is my battle cry for biblical interpretation! Without a standing temple, it would violate Torah to sacrifice animals. Clean and unclean - remember Noah and the animals two by two? Go look it up. Genesis 7. Well isn’t that strange. Pre-Sinai. Also, Grace and repentance are NOT just New Testament concepts. Seriously, look for it and you’ll be shocked. God has ALWAYS wanted our hearts Deut 10:12. Jesus made a new way but it was always there in the words of the father. It seemed new to the hearers but it wasn’t really new. True enough his people did not perfectly understand, but it’s there. If you seek, you will find. We are supposed to dig and seek earnestly in his word.
I confess I have responded exactly like this 😂 about ten years ago. I get it! What I’m saying doesn’t agree with most Christians! You’re totally right about that. But what you can’t accuse me of is inconsistency. What I’m talking about is seeing the Bible as a single unified document with a single author. “Consistency” is my battle cry for biblical interpretation! Without a standing temple, it would violate Torah to sacrifice animals. Grace and repentance are NOT just New Testament concepts. Seriously, look for it and you’ll be shocked. Jesus made a new way but it was always there in the words of the father. True enough his people did not perfectly understand, but it’s there. If you seek, you will find. We are supposed to dig and seek earnestly in his word.
I agree that consistency throughout all of Scripture is very important. I also agree that grace and repentance are not unique to the New Testament, hence the laws God put in place for the Israelites before the coming of Christ. But when studying the Bible as a concise whole, I see the Old Covenant and New Covenant divinely interlinked---and the New Covenant FULFILLING the Old Covenant, therefore making it unnecessary to continue to practice in the light of Christ's saving us through the gospel.
I also agree that we are supposed to dig and seek earnestly in His Word, but quite frankly, it bothers me that you assume I haven't done that because I don't agree with you. I have many, many reasons to disagree with your take from years of reading the Word and working through my convictions and I still fail to see how your line of thinking applies in light of the gospel. I believe the message of the Bible is the gospel, and that the gospel should be our primary focus in all things. But thank you for this discussion; I appreciate your take.
John 10:22 22 "Then came the Festival of Dedication[b] at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade."
This seems like a weak statement that doesn't really support Jesus "celebrating" Hanukkah. Wasn't Jesus in the temple all the time? Just because he was there during the feast of dedication doesn't mean he really celebrated it, right? When asking the question, did Jesus celebrate Hanukkah, we have to consider where He spent most of His ministry. Perhaps we think that Jesus spent most of His time around the temple in Jerusalem which was the center of the Jewish faith. This is not the case. As Eowyn mentioned, there are a few Leviticus 23 feasts that Jewish men were supposed to travel to Jerusalem in order to observe. The feast of dedication (Hanukkah) was not one of them. Most of Jesus' ministry was spent in the region of Galilee and trips to Jerusalem were primarily reserved for the feasts. The fact that Jesus took the time to travel to Jerusalem and appear in the temple during the feast of dedication is a strong endorsement of Him celebrating Hanukkah.
I like that you spent some time on what grafting in means. People tend to get that very wrong (largely due to brainwashing in my opinion) and it's something I find myself getting sidetracked addressing quite frequently.
Personally, I don't celebrate Hanukkah simply because it's not a designated feast (as you pointed out), and the modern version of it seems very commercialized. But other than commercialization, I don't find it objectionable.
I REALLY like the Maccabee books! Talk about people having strong faith! I will likely get into it if and when I discuss dietary laws.
Well done, young lady!
Thank you so much, Samuel! I completely agree with you!
As for grafting in, I almost skipped it lol, but then decided it was pretty essential to the argument. Again, thank you so much for reading my post! I always enjoy reading yours :)
Thanks so much for posting this and happy Hanukkah. (One of my favorite holidays :)
Thank you so much for reading! And you too!!! :D
This was an interesting post! When I was little, we celebrated Hannukah. We even had our own menorah. We don't do it anymore, but I never saw an issue WITH Hannukah and Christmas being celebrated at the same time.
I don’t either!! That’s so cool that you celebrated it! :D
When I was at my state's homeschool convention, my mom had made friends with one of the speakers for the Hispanic mini convention. That family celebrated Shabbat on Friday night, so Mom and I participated. It was a humbling moment.
Wow, that's awesome!!
I really enjoyed this post!
I do think it's worth remembering that Christians live under the New Covenant, which fulfills and replaces the Old Covenant (Hebrews 8:13). That means we’re not required to follow every law given to ancient Israel, like the feasts outlined in Leviticus 23. Instead, our focus is on living by the teachings of Christ, which emphasize love and grace.
Hanukkah is a beautiful tradition, but it’s not something we as Christians are obligated to observe. Jesus celebrated it as a Jewish man living under the Old Covenant, but that doesn’t mean it’s a command for us. Since it’s not listed as one of the feasts in Leviticus 23, it’s clear that Hanukkah is more of a meaningful cultural celebration than a divine requirement.
For those who believe in Christ's sacrifice, choosing to celebrate Hanukkah can be a personal decision. It’s less about following a rule and more about finding ways to honor God in how we live today.
Nonetheless, I really appreciated your thoughts and insights, and if you want to celebrate Hanukkah but not Christmas, that's great. :)
Thank you so much, Jack!! I really appreciate your comments :D
I'll answer each paragraph:
-- I do think it's worth remembering that Christians live under the New Covenant, which fulfills and replaces the Old Covenant (Hebrews 8:13). That means we’re not required to follow every law given to ancient Israel, like the feasts outlined in Leviticus 23. Instead, our focus is on living by the teachings of Christ, which emphasize love and grace.
We are not required to keep God's Law. But He did create it for a reason. For example, the thief on the cross never kept God's Law, yet he was able to live with God. But that's also a very specific circumstance that probably none of us are living in, at least I hope.
Our relationship with God is very much like a relationship with a parent. If you don't have a good relationship with your parents, then don't use that as an example, haha. I'll use my relationship with my parents as an example!
If my mom tells me to do something, I can make the choice to obey or disobey. She's not going to disown me if I disobey, but if I obey, I show my mom that I care about what she tells me to do and that she can trust me.
God's Law is awesome, and it says that a lot in the Bible :D
-- Hanukkah is a beautiful tradition, but it’s not something we as Christians are obligated to observe.
Oh absolutely!! It's not one of the feasts/festivals commanded in Leviticus 23.
-- Jesus celebrated it as a Jewish man living under the Old Covenant, but that doesn’t mean it’s a command for us. Since it’s not listed as one of the feasts in Leviticus 23, it’s clear that Hanukkah is more of a meaningful cultural celebration than a divine requirement.
Exactly!
-- For those who believe in Christ's sacrifice, choosing to celebrate Hanukkah can be a personal decision. It’s less about following a rule and more about finding ways to honor God in how we live today.
I would also agree with that, haha.
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Thank you so much for reading and commenting, it means so much when people take the time to talk to me about what I wrote ☺️🤓